Interview with Pope Francis

Homily – September 22, 2013

Today I decided to move away from the readings and talk a little about an event that has received considerable press this past week – an interview with Pope Francis. I decided to do this first, because I wanted to, and secondly, I suspect most people have heard about the interview from the secular press. I do think the press generally has done a good job in covering the interview but their perspective has been a bit narrow and coverage has been limited to a few topics. I think it is important to consider the interview in a wider context. And so that is what I am going to try to do. Please keep in mind that I offer these reflections not as an historian of the papacy or as a theologian. I speak as a pastor, or rather, as a former pastor now removed from the responsibilities of administration but still trying to minister in whatever way I am called.

On Thursday, when the interview was first published, emails and text messages from friends came fast and furious – had I heard about the interview, had I read it? Why all the fuss? Well, it is rare for a Pope to grant an interview. And in this interview Pope Francis spoke with a candor and tone that is not like anything we have heard before from the Bishop of Rome, the successor of Saint Peter.

Each Pope brings to the papacy his own personality, his own style. I have lived under seven popes and each has been very different. Pope Pius XII, most of whose ministry was spent working in the Vatican under Pope Pius XI, was ever the diplomat in an era when the Pope was treated like royalty and took on the air of a prince. John XXIII, his successor, by contrast was the Italian grandfather everyone wanted to have! His calling the Second Vatican Council shocked everyone as he sought to find the church’s way in the modern world. Paul VI, in many ways, was like Pius XII. He worked for many years in the Vatican before becoming Bishop of Milan. He was really groomed for the papacy by Pius XII. I have always had a special place in my heart for Paul VI. In the years following the Council he suffered greatly as the church experienced growing pains trying to respond to the challenges of Vatican II. We hardly had time to get to know the so-called September Pope, John Paul I. But in a short month his engaging smile and profound spiritual insight voiced in the simplest of words made a lasting impact. Then came John Paul II, part ecclesiastical giant, part rock star as he traveled the world and, in a special way, captured the attention of young people. Both John Paul II and John XXIII will be proclaimed saints on Divine Mercy Sunday at the end of April and the world will applaud with thunderous ovations. Pope Benedict was always the professor, always the theologian carefully articulating, in his own shy manner, the tenets of the faith in words that were precise, clear and direct. And now we have the Argentinean of Italian parentage, Jorge Bergoglio – the first pope to choose the name Francis and the first pope who is a Jesuit. When he stepped out on the balcony in front of Saint Peter’s and was introduced to the world on the evening of his election I thought to myself: fasten your seatbelts, the church is beginning a wild ride to wherever it is that the Holy Spirit is leading us. I thought then and I think now, Francis has a Franciscan heart and a Jesuit mind.

About the interview. It was held over a period of three meetings in August when everybody is at the beach or in the mountains to avoid the heat and humidity of Rome. It seems no one knew about the interview – it was kept a secret until the text was published on Thursday. The interviewer was a Jesuit journalist, editor of an Italian Catholic journal. It was understood that the interview would be published on the same day by 17 Jesuit publications around the world. In the United States it was published by America magazine, a Jesuit commentary on issues at the heart of Catholicism, often as they relate to the secular world. America engaged five people to carefully translate the interview from Italian to English. It is important to note that Pope Francis gave final approval to the text so there can be no question about the accuracy of what was reported.

Now, why all the fuss? It has to do with style and tone, really. I think, my own opinion, that most of the pope’s before him, with the exception of John XXIII saw the church and world as two fighters  in opposite corners, opposed to one another. Taking his lead from John XXIII, outlined in his reason for calling the Second Vatican Council, Francis seeks to engage the world – not from an opposing corner. Rather he sees the necessity for the church to enter the ring with the world as it were, not to pick a fight but to engage in dialogue and find common ground where all can work to promote the dignity and worth of all of God’s children, whatever their origin, language or religion. For Francis, the dialogue begins with the recognition that all are sinners; all are in need of mercy; all miss the mark. But because of the goodness and patience and generous love of God, we need not be held captive by our shortcomings. For Francis, if God loves all of his children, can the church do less? In seeing the inherent goodness, the divine indwelling in all people, Francis is very much the Franciscan. In seeking to engage the world in dialogue rather than in confrontation, Francis is ever the Jesuit. It is sometimes said that most people look for the right answers; Jesuits, on the other hand, look to ask the right questions! And in this interview Francis raises some important questions about how the church sees, understands and approaches the world, particularly those in the world who struggle in any way. That accounts for his attention and love of the poor. Francis does not define the church as an institution but rather as the holy faithful people of God. In this he echoes the teaching of Vatican II. Francis said the church is like a field hospital after battle, needing to heal wounds and to warm the hearts of the faithful; Francis says the church needs “nearness, proximity” as it walks with people in their journey of life.

Francis said some other things about the church and the church’s ministers that got a great deal of attention because of the compassion and understanding his words convey. He said: “The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all.” He went on to ask (here is the Jesuit asking questions!): “How are we treating the people of God? I dream of a church that is a mother and shepherdess. The church’s ministers must be merciful, take responsibility for the people and accompany them like the Good Samaritan, who washes, cleans and raises up his neighbor. This is pure gospel… The ministers of the Gospel must be people who can warm the hearts of the people, who walk through the dark night with them, who know how to dialogue and to descend themselves into their people’s night, into the darkness, but without getting lost.” Francis continued (you will have to tell me if you agree with him): “The people of God want pastors, not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials. The bishops, particularly, must be able to support the movements of God among their people with patience, so that no one is left behind. But they must also be able to accompany the flock that has a flair for finding new paths.”

Perhaps the part of the interview with Pope Francis that got the most attention was the section that dealt with hot button issues: abortion, homosexuality, contraception and how the church can respond to people who live in situations that are irregular for the church or who are in complex situations that represent open wounds: the divorced and remarried, same-sex couples, people who no longer attend mass and the sacraments, and people in other situations that often elicit judgment from the church. Francis has not changed church teaching on any issue. But he has said that there is a hierarchy to issues; he also said that we must consider these issues as part of a larger context of faith and discipleship; we have to find a “new balance” or we run the risk of losing perspective and thus losing credibility and becoming irrelevant in the eyes of the world, even among our own people.

Francis is very concerned that often the church is quick to make judgments without seeing the dignity of the person who is the target of those judgments. He is emphatic: “we must always consider the person.” We must always “endorse the existence of a person with love”, as Jesus did, not rejecting and condemning. We have to stand in awe before the mystery that is the human person.

This is an important sentence in the interview. While acknowledging church teaching and saying he is a “son of the church” Francis also says (echoing the teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic Church): “religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.”  God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.

Wow! I read that sentence and then read it again and paused. It means that while we articulate the tenets of the faith we have to be respectful of the conscience and faith journey of each person, sacred in the eyes of God, directed by an inner spirit that is the voice of the individual conscience. Wow! I read that and thought of all of you who are yourselves, or whose family members and loved ones are dealing with the issues Francis mentioned and other issues as well. I thought of those who have left the church because they have been made to feel less than worthy by harsh judgment. And I thought of those who are still a part of the church but are made to feel like second class citizens because their life situation is complex or who have made difficult decisions about their lives that don’t exactly measure up to the church’s expectations.

Francis is saying there is room for all of us. We have to find a way to open, not close the doors of the church to all of God’s children. He said: “This church with which we should be thinking is the home of all, not a small chapel that can hold only a small group of selected people. We must not reduce the bosom of the universal church to a nest protecting our mediocrity. And the church is Mother; the church is fruitful. It must be.”

What does all of this mean and where does it lead? I don’t know! But I do know that the Holy Spirit has given this man to the church, this Jorge Bergoglio, this Francis the first for a reason. And in time together we will discover that reason if we trust that Francis is following the lead of the Holy Spirit.  During the interview Francis said that as it became apparent he was going to be elected as bishop of Rome he felt a “deep and inexplicable peace and certain comfort come over him” even as he recognized the challenges and difficulties he would face. In all that Francis has done and said these past few months I have always felt that he was acting and speaking from that inner peace that is the presence of the Holy Spirit within him as he guides the church.

The interview deals with many other issues such as church governance, his Jesuit identity, and women in the life of the church. I encourage you to read the interview slowly, deliberately and prayerfully. At one point Francis acknowledged his own sinfulness and the realization that as a young Jesuit superior he made many mistakes because of his authoritarian style and failure to seek counsel and collaborate with others. He said he learned from that mistake and he hopes it made him a better bishop. I think what he has learned together with his gentleness and humility and wisdom will make him a great Holy Father for our church.

One secular commentator, whom I believe was raised a Catholic but who no longer practices, said that since his election he has had a “spiritual crush” on Pope Francis. And that has intensified as a result of this interview. I think his gentleness and humility and wisdom will make Francis a great Holy Father for the entire world. Let us continue to pray for him. Let us continue to listen to him.